From Classroom to Boardroom: Don DeVeaux on Training the Next Gen of Researchers

Description

Join hosts Matt and Stephanie as they sit down with Don DeVeaux, Professor of Practice at Michigan State University's MSMR program, to explore the evolving landscape of market research education and talent development. With over three decades of experience spanning General Motors, GfK, and academia, Don shares invaluable insights on preparing the next generation of researchers, navigating the AI revolution, and the enduring importance of human skills in insights work. Whether you're a seasoned researcher, hiring manager, or considering a career in insights, this episode offers a fascinating look at how academic institutions and industry partners are collaborating to shape tomorrow's research leaders.

‍

Transcript

Don - 00:00:00:

‍

I'd start with communication. That's something that actually in the group project, we talk about just even like, how do you write an email to a client? How do you do that? How formal are you supposed to be? What information do you want to communicate? Don't use too many colors. These are all like personal style things, but they're things that the researchers are going to have to face in the first part of their job. So I think being able to communicate via email or written communication, being able to communicate verbally and articulate your thoughts is really critical. I'd say next is probably that idea of critical thinking and just being able to process what it is you're hearing and have empathy for whoever the stakeholders you're working with. But at the end of the day, it's still about humans. I don't care how fast you do whatever. You've got to have people who will know the industry that they trust, can interpret the data, and that doesn't change. They'd still need to know what a good questionnaire looks like. That doesn't change even if AI could write one, if that sound could make you take it. If they don't know that.

‍

Stephanie - 00:00:59:

‍

Hello, fellow insight seekers. Welcome to The Curiosity Current, a podcast that's all about navigating the exciting world of market research. I'm Stephanie Vance.

‍

Matt - 00:01:09:

‍

And I'm Matt Mahan. Join us as we explore the ever-shifting landscape of consumer behavior and what it means for brands like yours.

‍

Stephanie - 00:01:16:

‍

Each episode will get swept up in the trends and challenges facing researchers today, riding the current of curiosity towards new discoveries and deeper understanding.

‍

Matt - 00:01:27:

‍

Along the way, we'll tap into the brains of industry leaders, decode real-world data, and explore the tech that's shaping the future of research.

‍

Stephanie - 00:01:34:

‍

So whether you're a seasoned pro or just getting your feet wet, we're excited to have you on board.

‍

Matt - 00:01:40:

‍

So with that, let's jump right in.

‍

Stephanie - 00:01:43:

‍

Today on The Curiosity Current, we are joined by Don DeVeaux, Professor of Practice and the Masters of Science in Marketing Research Program at Michigan State University. Don has spent over a decade shaping the future of market research professionals and recently received the Student Engagement Excellence Award for his outstanding mentorship and contribution to the next generation of insights leaders.

‍

Matt - 00:02:05:

‍

Before his academic career, Don had a 17-plus-year tenure as global lead of the automotive team at GfK, now part of Nielsen, where he held senior global leadership roles in training and career development as well. He also spent 17-plus years on the client side at General Motors. Today, Don will share how his industry expertise and academic approach are helping to mold the future of market research talent.

‍

Stephanie - 00:02:32:

‍

Yeah, welcome.

‍

Don - 00:02:33:

‍

Great to be here, Gus.

‍

Matt - 00:02:34:

‍

I was just going to jump right in. You've had such a diverse career. You mentioned global leadership at GfK, client side at General Motors for a number of years, now teaching at Michigan State. Can you give us a quick snapshot of your journey and how you ended up transitioning from industry to academia?

‍

Don - 00:02:53:

‍

I do get asked that question a lot, especially for people who are maybe reaching that age when they're going to. They can see the end game of their journey. I think a lot of people's careers in Muslim is happy accidents along the way. So you're talking to a guy who got an industrial engineering degree and realized about one month in that he didn't want to be in industrial engineering in industry. So that's where I quickly said, maybe getting an MBA would be a good idea. So I already knew I wanted to pivot out of that, but I'm glad I got manufacturing experience at the beginning because that helped at a company like General Motors to get some closeness to how the products are built. But I knew I wanted to be on the other side with customers. So I switched over to get my MBA and then. From there, I came back to General Motors and had an opportunity to work in a number of different roles, marketing and brand management and sales forecasting and such. And that's what introduced me to marketing research. I used to work at the GM building in downtown Detroit. And we were on the ninth floor is where the analysts, a lot of MBA types who were doing these forecasts for new product programs that were going into all the financial calculations. And we needed data. So on the sixth floor was the marketing research group. They said we would spend a lot of time down there because they had all the information that we needed to be able to do our jobs. I kept thinking, like, this is fascinating. Like, you guys have a lot of fun. You go out and get this data. You get to talk to customers all the time. So that's how I sort of got exposed to marketing research. And then after almost 20 years at GM, when I was saying, you know, I can see what I'll be doing here for another 20 or I can look for something else. I had a friend at a small research agency that had left GM and she recruited me over. And that's how I got into that side of it. To be honest, like a lot of people, the whole idea of leaving a big company and going to one that was much smaller, very scary. But then we got acquired by a couple of very large research firms. So I felt back in my large company space again pretty quickly. It was quite a shift, but it gave me great perspective on seeing both sides of both what it's like to be on the client side as a consumer research and then moving over to the agency side to see how we interact with a number of clients.

‍

Matt - 00:05:07:

‍

It was Alison Fisher.

‍

Don - 00:05:08:

‍

It was Alison Fisher.

‍

Matt - 00:05:10:

‍

So this was like classic brand health management funnel metrics. And then that's what was, as you say, acquired by GfK. And you suddenly found yourself part of the market research industry at large.

‍

Don - 00:05:23:

‍

So we were a very small company of less than 30 people and pretty much in the U.S.. And there was an opportunity because there was a lot of consolidation at that time as actually NOP out of the U.K. that bought us. And then they were a media company. They're like, we don't know what to do with research. So they sold us a year later, which actually turned out to be the best thing because we got global expansion and access to new clients and they got a foothold in the U.S.. So it turned out to be a really nice win-win.

‍

Matt - 00:05:54:

‍

So ostensibly, you had this run with GfK and then ostensibly you were retired. But then this whole other thing started up. You found yourself kind of moving in this direction with education and academia in Michigan State. What made you decide to kind of keep going with that new version, that new direction?

‍

Don - 00:06:11:

‍

Well, I mean, so I again lucked into it. My daughter was attending Michigan State and it was actually the person I told you recruited me over to Allison Fisher was our COO. And she got contacted by the advisory board, Matt O'Mara. Everyone knows Matt O'Mara. And he was recruiting new board members, said GfK should be on it. And she reached out and said, your kid goes to state. Why don't you do this? I said, sure. So I joined the advisory board and, you know, hired interns like you and started a great relationship. And I liked being involved with this degree and meeting the students and hiring them and having input into skills that are needed in the industry and all that sort of thing. And so I was part of that and for five, six years, and then I was going to retire. I remember mentioning to the head of the program at the time, Rich Sprang, and said, I'm going to retire. And I said, can I stay on on the board? He goes, no. I'm going to go.

‍

Matt - 00:07:10:

‍

Okay.

‍

Don - 00:07:12:

‍

He goes, oh, because you have to be working. But he then asked me, he said, would you like to teach? And I said, I don't know, maybe. And long story short, two weeks after I retired, I was in a classroom making it up as I went along with my first group of students. So, and that I've just been doing ever since then. And I am retired and I do this for fun, but it's nothing like working. It is so rewarding and enjoy that.

‍

Stephanie - 00:07:39:

‍

Well, let's talk about that a little bit, because like you said, you have been a professor in the MSMR program in Michigan State for several years now. And what is the most rewarding part about getting to work with the next generation of market researchers?

‍

Don - 00:07:52:

‍

Honestly, it's something I enjoy in my career, both GM and GfK, was having conversations with my staff about what they wanted to do and how we could get them there. So that's just something that I gravitated toward. Anyway, that's probably how I ended up working in HR at the end of my career. They recruited me over. But I think the most rewarding thing is, honestly, you can see behind me, but I do have some cards and things up there from students that have written about the experience they gained from some of our courses. A capstone or a group project course or just being in the program. And that experience has helped them get their job or prepared them for that. And that, to me, is the reason why I enjoy doing it. Just seeing the growth from that first day at orientation all the way through to... And it's funny now. I mean, I have reunions. I just had a barbecue a couple weeks ago for the current students and invited some alums in the area. And when I see the students who are a year or two, three out, they are not the fresh-faced kids, I can say. I'm a dad. Right. That were in the classroom. They are seasoned professionals. They know what they're doing. They are. And it's just so funny to think back about, you know, when they were maybe struggling through something on a class assignment as a student and now saying, And it's so rewarding to see how, to me, that part is the best part.

‍

Stephanie - 00:09:12:

‍

Makes a lot of sense.

‍

Matt - 00:09:14:

‍

And I know a lot of the, we want to ask you about today is like, what is it about those first three, four years that really make it such a formative, transformative experience for students? I'm curious, just jumping right into one of our meteor topics, there has to have been just a monumental change in the way we teach market research, I'll say today. Compared to when myself went through the program back in 2011. I mean, I'm not even talking about AI yet, but I'm wondering if you could just give us the high-level view on over the last decade, 10, 15 years, what has that shift, what has that evolution looked like at a high level? I have to imagine it's been tremendous, but I don't know how to map it.

‍

Don - 00:10:05:

‍

So actually, it's funny you mention a map because that's exactly how I think we've done it. So I want to give a shout out and credit to somebody you guys know, Michael Burrington, who has been at the forefront of the relationship and started the relationship with AYTM and our program. But Michael's been instrumental of working through the curriculum and looking at it from the lens of an industry professional and saying, how do we prepare future talent, right? What skills and chunks of experience do they need to have to be successful? So we did do a big curriculum. We do three years ago, and it was more just making sure that we could fit in other content. But even before that, we were always listening to our board members and our alums and anyone we knew in the industry of saying, what are we missing? What do we need to do more of? You know, the classic green, you know, keep doing it, red, stop, yellow, adjust or whatever. So we've always been doing it. That really impressed me as a board member, how flexible and willing the program was to do that. So I'd say two things. One is the idea that there is a structure, no matter whether there's AI or any new technology or whatever, you still, as a market researcher, have to find the business problem, how you're going to gather the consumer information. How do you analyze it and understand what it's telling you? And then how do you communicate that out to your stakeholders? Whether it is AI or new technology, whatever, that remains the same. So that structure has been there. And I think all we've done is looked at how our new technology is coming in that address how we can do that faster, how we can do that so that it removes the burden of repetitive tasks and such from that. But we still teach the fundamentals of, I mean, you have to be able to write a good questionnaire. Now, are there tools that help us with that? Are there templates? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, it's up to the researcher to be able to write that instrument or to be able to analyze it or to be able to say what it means. And so I think that part hasn't changed, but yes, we brought in new tools. And probably the other thing we focused on more is that second part, less about the data gathering, the business problem, because that really hasn't changed. It's more on, I got the data, how do I analyze it? Maybe also, how do I collect it? And then for sure on the back end, how do I communicate it? When I was on the board, I remember it was so much discussion, yes, about new technology, but also about tell stories. Don't just say, here's the chart and here's the data that we can see. So let's say in all those areas, there's been change.

‍

Matt - 00:12:41:

‍

What do you think it is about the, because you mentioned, like thinking about the research project life cycle, the upfront stuff, the understanding of the objective and the articulation of the challenge. What do you think it is about that part that has so far sort of remained a time? Why has that part not really changed in terms of how it's taught today?

‍

Don - 00:13:02:

‍

Great question. I'd say my answer is it's people. This business is, I mean, even with automation and AI and everything, at the end of the day, it's people. We need something done talking to people who you're looking to help them. And so that upfront part, which I say in our two critical, like reward courses, the capstone and the group project course, you've got to get that right. You've got to make sure you understand what the client is looking for and make sure that your objectives tie to that, et cetera. And so we put a lot of emphasis on that because that's just fundamentally not going to change.

‍

Stephanie - 00:13:37:

‍

I guess in light of that, what do you think? And I think I'm particularly interested in from a soft skill perspective, because I think we probably could all align on the foundational functional skills that researchers need. But what do you think, especially today, are the most critical soft skills that this generation of incoming insights professionals need to be cultivating?

‍

Don - 00:13:59:

‍

I'm really glad you said soft skills because usually I get the what skills do they have. And of course, you have to talk about all those fundamental skills of technical prowess and analytics and all of that. But soft skills, I think, is the area that it's hard to teach and it's not something we generally put focus on. I'd start with communication because that's something that actually in the group project course, I mean, we talk about just even like how do you write an email to a client? How do you do that? How formal are you supposed to be? What information do you want to communicate? Don't use too many colors. And these are all like personal style things. They're things that the researchers are going to have to face in the first part of their job. So I think being able to communicate via email or written communication, be able to communicate verbally and articulate your thoughts is really critical. I'd say next is probably that idea of critical thinking and just being able to process what it is you're hearing and have empathy for the whoever the stakeholders you're working with. And again, try to bring as much as that as we can into the classroom of just putting yourself in the other person's shoes and being able to play back what you hear. I think that's something that I hear a lot from talking to companies on the board about making sure that the students have an opportunity to practice those listening skills and those communication skills.

‍

Stephanie - 00:15:19:

‍

Definitely agree. Thank you.

‍

Matt - 00:15:20:

‍

It's funny because like, I keep coming back to this thing that you said, Don, about how different the students slash recent graduates are after that first two to three years in the wild, so to speak, compared to when you last saw them in the classroom. And I wonder like, is it because they have learned some of those fundamental soft skills? Is it because is it that they built up their confidence? What is so important about the first two to three years post-graduation in a young researcher's career? What's critical?

‍

Don - 00:15:51:

‍

So you brought up confidence. I think that is the biggest thing that I know that many folks going into any job, but particularly in this field, because there wasn't a market research degree opportunities, right? Everyone learned on the job. If you go back to people who've been doing this for 20, 30 years, there wasn't an MSMR program at Michigan State or Georgia. So that ability to jump into a role where you're like, this hasn't been done or whatever. That idea of imposter syndrome is something I see a lot of that I think that just doing it with practice. And I remind students all the time, it's just practice. It's just reps. You're going to get it. And we do a questionnaire like the first time in group project. I'm like, you're going to do so many of this. You're going to get, you'll be able to recognize your own like things that you typically do that, you know, or what you're really good at and what other people will catch. And anyone who tells you they can write a perfect questionnaire that no one's going to have any comments on is just probably not telling the truth. Right. So it's just trying to set that grounding with them. I think it's that, I think it's two things. They gain competence and they just get reps. And I think that just makes them just seem so much. More comfortable and at ease than when they're still going through the first time, it's like all new and we get that. So we try to get in that safe space where they can screw up a little bit and hopefully come out the other end going, that was great.

‍

Stephanie - 00:17:15:

‍

Well, and the reality is, and we all know this too, but they're going to continue to make those mistakes. And, you know, through their career, the best learning moments I've ever had with, you know, that just stick out to me for myself and for all the, you know, folks who have worked in my teams over the years are those projects that just really go sideways. Right. And you first take the task of fixing the issues, your problem solving. Right. But at the end of that, I always love that moment where you get to debrief and somebody is being so hard on themselves and you're like, let me tell you something. You're never going to forget this. You will never make this mistake again. So don't I know that's a painful lesson, but you're going to carry this forever and you will never do this thing again. Like this is how we grow. So very iterative, growing role, I think, in market research.

‍

Don - 00:18:05:

‍

This is off topic. We'll be telling this little story. I had a director who came to my office at GfK who were doing an overseas study and we messed up something in the sampling frame or something. It was definitely our fault, not the clients, not the vendor. We had a person come in to tell me what had happened and what they planned to do about it. I threw and they told what the financial impact would be. Okay. Yo, what's wrong? I thought I was going to get fired.

‍

Matt - 00:18:30:

‍

What if I fired you?

‍

Don - 00:18:31:

‍

Like, you came in here, you had a problem, you told me what you're going to do about it, you wound up to it, and you already fought three steps ahead. This stuff happens. Stop beating yourself up. And that's what people need to understand.

‍

Matt - 00:18:46:

‍

I don't know what either of you are talking about, because having worked for both of you, I never made a single mistake. I was just an intern, man. I was just minding my own business. That's why it's an interesting question to me, though. It's somewhat far removed from that phase, but so far as I don't remember it, and it is a really interesting time. I mean, we keep saying a young researcher's career, but probably a young professional's and any vertical's career, those first few years when you're just learning how much you don't know. So it kind of leads me into my next question, which is loaded and big, but it's just, we got to tackle it somehow. So now we have these young researchers who are being asked to contend with AI. So now AI is here. We did it, everybody. AI exists. It lives. Artificial intelligence is real. How is this changing the landscape? For lack of a more specific way to ask that question, of course, I know there are a whole bunch of academic implications of AI from the how do we ensure that our students are doing the work that they say they're doing and all that. That's interesting enough in its own. It's a different discussion. But this is like, people are wondering, AI can do research. Some of these AI applications that are out there are being actively positioned as being akin to a highly skilled research analyst. How are we dealing with that with the young generation?

‍

Don - 00:20:13:

‍

Very question. You're right. We could spend a lot of time on the implications as somebody is trying to teach when they're given a tool. And I have to be reminded that, okay, this is my calculator. I say, you guys don't know what this is, but I was of the era when these were new. And before that, there were slide rules, but this scared people.

‍

Matt - 00:20:32:

‍

Is that a Casio? Is that a 1985 Casio?

‍

Don - 00:20:35:

‍

This is an H12C and it is from 1985, actually, because I got it right before I went to grad school at Northwestern. But that's not the point. The point is, it's still going and I still use it. And people were scared because you could program that thing. I have no idea now. I can barely divide with it, but you could program it to do a lot of things. And what's the point of that if you're supposed to be learning the original one? Well, the point is you had to learn how to program it. So that is a skill you're gaining. Let's talk. All to be honest, I was skeptical of AI and then a bit terrified of it as an instructor. Because I thought this was even, let's go back to fall, this fall. Because I saw students using it as a way to just do their homework. This is the words he said to write. Go write me words. The problem was that they're not actually doing the thinking. We went to go back to critical thinking. If all you can do is that, and that may be a valuable skill, is we know that how you prompt AI and all that is something that is a skill, just like knowing how to program this calculator. But we're talking like, I don't want to do any work. Let me just plug it in. And the responses were pretty easy to decipher. Okay, I just went through this with my teaching assistants in the last month, plugged in the same thing. It's scary. The other thing that I learned about it is trying not to be afraid of it from that standpoint. The students who want to learn will use it in the right way. We say that you need to have like hands on your keyboard. This needs to be something you do for your boss. That's how we sort of like this is future. You is going to be out there working in six to 12 months and you need to be able to do this. So if you want to use AI, if you're stuck on something, that's fine. Like, they're doing the capstones now, and they are expected to use secondary research. So, fine. You know, you use AI. It's going to ask you. The light bulb moment for me was actually doing a survey that you will get, Matt, as an alum. You're doing this to current students. We're surprised we haven't done it before. Just checking in before they start the program, after the program, and that with alums about, you know, their experience. And what are they up to? And all that sort of stuff. So, we were working on this for a month or two at the TAs. And we were stuck on some responses to, like, why did you select this program or whatever? We're on a call. And it was actually Professor McInnes who suggested, hey, I just plugged in this into Quad or something and got back. This is how to categorize it. And that light bulb went off for me. That's the right use of AI for our researchers. If you're stuck in an area and you need to get unblocked, then yeah, use it that way. You still need to write. And I don't have any problem with people going, well, it's a good way to ask this question in Google even before there was AI prompts that would answer me. Because take advantage of the experience. I mean, in companies, you'll have old questionnaires you can look at, right? So that's not the point. That's where the critical thinking comes in of how do I put this mess together in a way and listen to my clients and understand who they are and what they're looking for. But that's the part that we're still struggling a little bit. There are still going to be people who want a shortcut. But I think we've found that by embracing it and allowing them to use it and practice it, and we do get them hands-on with a lot of these tools, is the best way for not only us not to be afraid of it, but to understand what they're going to have at their disposal going into the work.

‍

Matt - 00:23:56:

‍

Makes a lot of sense. You want to approach it with critical thinking yourself. If it's at the end of the day, critical thinking that you're trying to instill in the students, it's like, let's be critical and intentional about how we evaluate the tools. Let's actually get in there and experiment and see what it can do for research. And so you're using that to go back and inform your curriculum with a well-positioned, well-educated perspective on what the tools can do.

‍

Don - 00:24:24:

‍

Right, but we throw them in and then have them do it, but then also reflect on what it is, like what worked and done. So one of the things I'll tell any student, because this comes up at the end of the year, like we do a final, supposed to write a reflected essay about their internship experience or whatever. And a lot of times I'll get... Well, and we ask things like, is there anything you wish the program would have taught you? So, you know, typical, you know, they use Tableau over here and we didn't have that course. And my answer to students earlier on is always, we can't teach you every tool. It wouldn't fit in the curriculum. What I ask you to do is learn how to learn in this forum. So if we open up and allow you to use it, okay, so yeah, you may be using another tool, a platform that's similar to AYTM or whatever, and you're going to be exposed to it. You go to Circana to get their own way of mining their in-house data. Learn how to learn. And then also always be, you guys are on the agency side. I've been on both. There's always going to be a bright, shiny object that comes in. That's what we used to call them at GfK. Like, here's another bright, shiny object that people get. Oh, let's run toward that. And then six months later, somebody else is going to come in and go, but yeah, look what we can do. You have that, but this is better. Always be skeptical. So open to new things, but always be skeptical about whatever analytical tool you're using, what software you're using. What software you're using? What software you're using? Methodology, like nothing is perfect. But everything will work if you approach it in the right way.

‍

Stephanie - 00:25:51:

‍

I think, too, with generative AI, something that I think about a lot and try to convey to, especially like more junior team members who do have a lot of questions about what their career is going to look like longer term. And I think that, you know, humans are still the arbiters of quality, right? And human experts are the arbiters of quality in the context of market research. And you don't get that expertise without knowing how to do the thing. So even if you could ask CHAP, GPT or CLOGG to, like, write a survey for you and it's relatively decent, you know, you could probably do that a few times. You're going to get caught at some point with something a little funky in there, right? And that's the whole point is that you need to have that knowledge base to effectively be able to say this is what's got to be changed here. We're never going to hit this business objective because X, Y or Z is missing. And it sort of takes parallel pathing those things. Get good at using AI. Absolutely. That's going to serve you well. But stop using your critical thinking skills to your point, Don, because they're going to work together to be effective.

‍

Don - 00:26:56:

‍

That's exactly it. It's still a people-driven business and people are expecting results, the ones asking the questions. And if you could just feed it into a machine, then why would they need you? So we have to be able to, as researchers, deliver that value. And yes, we need to embrace the tools so we can do things smarter, faster, cheaper, because that will never go away. That's been constant forever and it's not going to change. But at the end of the day, it's not only are we as people dealing with it, but also talking to consumers. So the one thing I can't wrap my head around right now is this idea that you can create responses and I know how it's doing it through algorithms, but that scares me. Yeah. If you want to see like how your dashboard looks with real data, I get that. You guys have a tool and we have them practice with it. But the thought that you're going to replace real consumer responses, that one's so concerned about, because at the end of the day, research is about getting information from concerns.

‍

Stephanie - 00:27:53:

‍

There's a lot there. It's true. You feel like when you play it out to the end, it's very recursive, right? Just learning from, it'll be interesting to see. It'll be really interesting to see how that aspect of things plays out over time. If we can switch gears a little bit, I mean, I know we all love to talk about AI, but I'm curious, and you talked about this a little bit already, but I would love if you could, from your perspective, and I have a little bit of perspective on this too, but what gaps do you see between what's being taught in the classroom and then what's expected in the workplace when you have these MR grads going out? And like I said, as a hiring manager, especially on the supplier side, and I think that's unique to the supplier side. But I definitely have some things that I notice are areas where we've gotten to a point where I really just, what I expect and desire is good foundational skills, and I expect to teach the rest on the job. I had that expectation, but I wonder, do you think that that's generally the way that it should and does work, or do you think that there should be preparation for a lot of those kinds of soft skills like for us, and I would say it's problem solving in the moment, communication to your point. But on the supplier side, to me, a lot of times that looks like code switching, being a really effective code switcher between different kinds of clients, and then internal communication, and then just being able to juggle a lot of different projects and different brands and different types of products, because that's something that you don't experience as much on the client side. So I have these little areas where I know people are going to be overwhelmed at first, and it's kind of in those areas. And so I try to ensure that we have the space to start working on those. But how do you think about those gaps? And do you, where is the right place to be addressing them?

‍

Don - 00:29:36:

‍

Great question. I love the practical nature of this conversation because that's what really, again, attracted me to teach and be involved with the board. So it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Look, you can't just give people experience, to your point about the two to three years out, because it's been two to three years of them doing the job, running into those roadblocks, stumbling a little bit, having a great mentor or manager who guides them through it. But hopefully they are coming in like that director I mentioned with not just here's a problem, but here's what I tried to do. And then I went and talked to this person and here's my plan of action. And I just want to make sure you're in, you might have a suggestions and that's what they're there to learn. I think it's that professionalism. I think that gap is just that experience. And yeah, I mean, there's no way to replicate being bombarded with 12 projects at once and running them. Like we're not going to do, I've come close. I had them doing three projects over the summer, one set of time as groups. That was might have broken me too, because I had 12. All we can do is expose them and talk about it and get them experience. If I can make a plug about the program, and again, you've heard me talk about it. The thing I think we do nicely is a balance of, yes, here's how to write a questionnaire. Here's how to do a cluster analysis with now go do it with this real client and stumble through all that with coaching and guardrails, et cetera. Including some of the things that you're going to experience in quote, the real world of, hey, there's a problem with the data. How do we communicate that to the client? Or I have to give a status update. There is no course on how to write a status update email. I checked. There is no course. So we try to communicate and we give them like project management tools, which is another thing that I am very passionate about. Actually, it's the last rollout I did at GfK. My training job was project management for 14,000 employees because everybody needs to know how to get their work done. And there are certain skills and things like that. So I think the best that we can do is just try to at least expose them through some examples that they come and are ready to hit the ground running. But yeah, they are still very much a blank slate by the time they get to you guys or the client side. Right. But hopefully they're ready to go.

‍

Stephanie - 00:31:56:

‍

For sure. And they are. I mean, like I said, we have that expectation that that's the work that we're going to be doing with them. Right. We don't have to teach them how to interpret a crosstab. They know how to do that. It's that we have to teach them the soft skills of working in an environment with clients. I'm curious, do you think that there's a bigger role for like internships and market research? Or do you feel like there's enough and as many people as want to do internships and should are probably having that experience?

‍

Don - 00:32:24:

‍

Interesting because when I started on the advisory board, it was all about internships. I think Matt, you had one with us and then I think you had one at Toyota. So that was the model we were told. And he was fall student. So we had two, three month opportunities and then students started to accept full-time jobs. And wait, the difference between an internship and a full-time job. Some internships are like, we used to joke, oh yeah, you're the student. And at the end of the 12 weeks, you're going to tell us about your project over a lunch and learn about you reorganized the supply closet. And that's all they did. Whereas our experience, and Matt can attest to this, was, no, you're going to do the job of the person that you would be hired as a full-time. We're just going to throw you in and you are going to do that job because you need to see, A, we have work to get done. And B, you need to see what that job is to see if you want to take it on. And so I look at internships as almost a two-way trial, right, between the company and the individual. I do think internships are a good way for... Both sides to get that exposure. I think it'd be great if there were internships with more of a guaranteed pathway into full-time. Some companies do that, including my previous employer, we have a good relationship with, and then the problem is they can't always guarantee, right? You know, you have your full-time positions and all that, separate subject. But I think internships are a great way for people who are just going into marketing research, who have heard about it, but never done it, to experience it and decide. Remember, you're talking to the guy who was an industrial engineer about a month into the job said, I do not want to do this for the rest of my life. So that helped me do it. I just had to do it for two years. So like an internship of that would have been a great way for me to go, I think I'd choose this door.

‍

Matt - 00:34:09:

‍

We've kind of already started to nibble around the edges of this next question, but I'm just curious to get your thoughts, Don, given you've had time agency, client side, on the education side, involved with internships. What does a more ideal partnership look like between academic institutions and the insights industry broadly? What does the next, if we were to develop the perfect program, what would that look like today?

‍

Don - 00:34:39:

‍

That's a pretty heavy question. I don't think I can speak on behalf of everyone. Again, I'm going to toot the horn of the people who came before me in terms of this program. I've been told that our model with partnering with the insights industry in the MSMR program is a hallmark, even within... Michigan State, particularly in the Broad College, that the fact that we now have over 100 companies on the agency and client side who are willing to give their time, their expertise, to mentor our students, to come speak in class, to maybe give us, yes, access to tools and come in and talk about and show the students how to use it is the best way to work together. Because the students get, we can pull up a textbook and go, here it all is. But that's great. And we have some of that, but to be able to talk to people who are actually doing it and have that back and forth, I think is the best way. So I think having willing partners who want to engage and provide input, because it is an investment, I get that, of time mostly. But I think there's something that folks in the industry take away too.

‍

Stephanie - 00:35:51:

‍

Yeah, it's beneficial for both parties.

‍

Don - 00:35:52:

‍

Everybody went to college and enjoys, and I think everyone likes mentoring and coaching. And I found that, which is why I'm generally not in need of more mentors, because everyone likes doing that and talking to people because they all can remember that time. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that model has worked out pretty well.

‍

Stephanie - 00:36:11:

‍

I think to go back to the mutually beneficial aspect of it, when I think about the relationship between MSU and AYTM, where students are like running or executing their capstones on our platform, or some students are, what's so nice about that for us is those are people who, when we hire a lot from your program and they know our platform already, right? They absolutely have a leg up coming in. That is less training depth gets created on our side. So that's a win. The other win for us, though, is when that same cohort of folks end up on the client side and they're like, hey, I know a platform that I've used that was intuitive and we were able to do our capstones because so many organizations really take the lead of user decision makers when it comes to DIY platforms within their companies, because those are the employees who are ending up sitting in front of the keyboard and using that tech specifically. It's not their directors, it's them. And so they really do tend to be part of the decision making process. And so I just wanted to call out, it's really beneficial for us, too. I think it's such a win-win.

‍

Don - 00:37:16:

‍

I mean, honestly, I've seen it from the alums and we're not just talking large corporations, but even the small ones where again, DIY is probably a great way to go. And. The students got to work with what they're comfortable with. And it is a great tool. Yes, there are other great tools out there like that, but it teaches the students how to work with those things. And I mean, I'm glad you get that experience because I've heard students talk about, honestly, how much they enjoy working with the tool. And it's that familiarity too. So yeah, we do appreciate it because honestly, I've worked with some, tried it, a number of different models and this one has worked out very nicely.

‍

Stephanie - 00:37:57:

‍

Love it. To switch gears on you yet again, and really we're just flipping the script a little bit on this one, but do you have advice for companies now who are looking to invest in early career researchers? And I think what I mean by that is, are there any common missteps that you see companies make when they're onboarding or developing new talent, especially those that are coming from like a master's program? Are they underutilizing them? I don't know. Leave it to you.

‍

Don - 00:38:23:

‍

That's interesting because I had lots of conversations with folks in the industry and HR and such. So you bring up a couple of points. I have heard some companies say, hey, we value the fact that this is a master's program. We're going to bring them in a level higher than maybe our entry level. So they might bring him as a senior analyst versus an analyst. Now, again, then we're back to the, but have they really had enough time to an experience, even that one year, that first year of working through it? My history of the 800 plus grads that I know is that they can hit the ground running, but. That's one thing where depending on the training program, they may want to look and say, yeah, but they have done these projects because I've heard students, and again, the cards behind me saying, because we did that, I talked about that and I was able to jump in. We actually did that. I didn't think I'd know how to do, but now I do. At least I've been through it. Maybe using a new tool, different situation, but I've done it. And so again, that confidence. So I think one, just look at the skills. Look at your training program. There's no problem with people going through. I think training is great. Standardization. I think having a model where they can fit in and learn how to get hands-on on things is important. To have some sort of structure of this is what we want, what the job entails, and what we want you to do. I've heard that mentors are a very good thing, whether they're not managers, but having a mentor that you can go to and say, hey, I don't want to bother my boss, but this broke, and what do we do? What does this acronym mean?

‍

Stephanie - 00:39:53:

‍

I don't know what we're talking about. Yeah.

‍

Don - 00:39:55:

‍

I'm literally on a call, and I had no idea what they just said. That support system is very valuable. You guys are a remote company, which is fascinating to me. Somebody who closed all our offices at GfK and has been sitting in this office since he retired. But I worked in, and I'm sure you guys did too, in offices earlier on. Like, there's value to that, but there's also value in the flexibility. I think that having lived through COVID, there was definitely a feeling of folks who were put in a pure remote roles into an internship were feeling a bit lost and abandoned. I heard that a lot. And then I heard also the positive, and again, going back to these essays I'd read at the end of the summer, of same situation, but there was structure. There was, go meet these people remotely, and we're going to have virtual connections and meetings and things like that. You're going to work on a project together throughout. Those people were like, this was fine and great, but the ones who were left completely on their own and just felt like abandoned, that didn't work. So just be very mindful of how can you integrate these people into your organization and make sure that they understand they're part of a broader piece of the puzzle. And how they connected.

‍

Stephanie - 00:41:07:

‍

That's great advice.

‍

Matt - 00:41:08:

‍

That's such a great point. I was going to ask you about mentorship. I know we already talked about it a couple of times in this conversation, but obviously I know it's something that's very important to you. I think talking about your own accolades is a special kind of torture for someone as humble as yourself. But you did recently grab this Student Engagement Excellence Award from Michigan State that really reflects the investment you make in your students' future. Given everything you know about that and everything you just shared about the importance of mentorship, how would you advise a young startup researcher to identify a good mentor? How does that person find the right person to fill that role, which is kind of challenging, as you just pointed out, especially if they're in a remote workplace, but just in general?

‍

Don - 00:41:59:

‍

First thing you have to remember is there isn't just one mentor that you latch on to, right? You're building a network. So we do talk about things like networking and how to build that, like those skills that are practical about your career that you can't even imagine, but it will be there the day you start. When you talk about that, there's a number of different types of mentors. There are people that will go and people in your network who will cycle in and out. Mentors typically should not be your direct manager. They have their own role and all that should be somebody that you're comfortable talking to, perhaps at your level or whatever. But it could be somebody who's higher up, but in another area. I think it's just, at the end of the day, a great mentor is about that relationship. That the mentor wants to provide advice and connects with that individual. And the individual, the mentee, also feels that there's a connection and something they can get from it. We connect up, I do in my course, all the students with whatever mentors I can get from the industry, including alums and folks like yourself. And I tell them, look, sometimes it's going to be great. And other times it'll be like, you'll do your 30, 45 minutes and they will both be kind of like, all right, that was great. And nobody's giving signals that they want to stay in touch. And that's fine. That happens with, that's just part of life. But most times, you know, you will start to make a connection. You'll want to stay in touch with that person. And so I think it's just finding out who that it isn't about collecting. Like I'm trying to visit every major league baseball stadium. And yes, I would like to get to my 30. I am collecting stadiums. But in this case, it isn't just a numbers game. Like how many people can I get on LinkedIn? It's about finding the quality and the human connection. So that would be my advice is don't just have one and try to find out which ones resonate with you. And make it two-way. Like as a mentee, you should also, thanking your mentor and should be giving back what your progress has been and how they've helped you. Make sure mentees understand that while the mentor is willing to do it, it's really great to hear the feedback that you got something out of it. That what you did had an impact. Send them the card.

‍

Stephanie - 00:44:03:

‍

Totally. And then really the ultimate payback is paying it forward, right?

‍

Don - 00:44:07:

‍

Absolutely. When they raise their hand and then we hear about the food chain and how these things have been passed on, that's absolutely wonderful.

‍

Stephanie - 00:44:15:

‍

Looking ahead, how do you see the market research talent pipeline evolving over the next five to 10 years? And I think really what I'm curious about is, do you think an MSMR degree will continue to be as desirable as it is now? Will, you know, research become managed through other functions like brand managers or product managers? And as that happens, and if insight stops being a core function of its own, does that change the way that we're training? And do you even think that's going to happen?

‍

Don - 00:44:47:

‍

Definitely a lot to unpack there. It's funny, at GfK, I remember having this conversation with one of our board members over some pizza in Nuremberg. And it was about the time that we were looking to divest off our syndicated business or keep our syndicated business and divest off the other portions. A lot of it ended up going to our friends at Ipsos. And my point was, great that you want to have all this technology and automation to help clients mine our syndicated data faster than anyone else. At the end of the day, it's still about humans. I don't care how fast you do whatever. You've got to have people who will know the industry that they trust, can interpret the data, and that doesn't change. So to answer your question about how is the industry going to evolve and is it going to move organizationally and do we need to change the way we prepare our students, I think we're on the right path of doing that. We monitor our curriculum. We try to give them the solid foundation of real world plus the fundamental aspects of research. As you said, they'd still need to know what a good questionnaire looks like. That doesn't change even if AI could write one, if that sound can make you take it. If they don't. Know that? So yeah, I mean, the story hasn't changed since marketing research started is there's always going to be new technology. There's always going to be organizational shifts and priorities of where it sits and all that. But at the end of the day, it's having those soft skills and the ability to manage whatever new technology that will make you successful. I think the degree will still be valuable if we do our job right, because we will have prepared them for what is coming. And given, that's our condition.

‍

Stephanie - 00:46:27:

‍

Make a lot of sense.

‍

Matt - 00:46:28:

‍

The foundation will still be critical. The education will still be critical. Researchers will still be critical. What then? It's like looking to your crystal ball and tell us what changes you see coming to the market research industry overall over the next five to 10 years. We can talk about AI.

‍

Don - 00:46:48:

‍

To be honest, since we're just talking here, Michael Burgin would give you a very industry research focused answer on that about automation and the fact that, in fact, even the people we're looking for to recruit into the program. We typically recruit marketing majors, right? And all that. And there are other roles that are about, to your point about client management, Stephanie, that are about client success managers and things like that. So there probably are other aspects that we could keep layering onto this research or insights. Title, but I'd still argue that fundamentally it goes back to those soft skills. And can you analyze data? Can you think through problems? And can you communicate effectively with other humans? That isn't going to change. And so no matter what is coming, because who knew that AI would be ready now and here it is and it's going to do it well, you still need to be able to navigate that in an effective way.

‍

Matt - 00:47:49:

‍

If there's one course you could add to your program today that you think would really supercharge graduates for what's coming over the next five to 10 years, what would that one course be?

‍

Don - 00:48:02:

‍

How to navigate your first year in the job. Something that prepares them for the situations. I can imagine, we've even done this in the seminar where I brought in guest speakers. Like, here's a scenario. Your coworker comes to you with this problem. Like, what would you do? Like, we deal with parts of that in some of the practical applications in all of our courses with real case studies. But there's nothing that prepares you for that unknown other than working through it. Couldn't work on those soft skills and a lot of the training that is done on the job, how to be a better storyteller, how to manage conflicts, how to communicate better with those things. That would be great, if we could spend more time in, in that area. There's never going to be enough time, to do that. But that's the only other thing, because at the end of the day it's just like I said practice, I didn't say another group project or capstone, because that has limited you and doing it once, but it's all this other coaching, and experience that is, would be wonderful. I don't know if it can happen, I know what's going to happen on the job, but that's the thing that could help with that transition a little bit.

‍

Stephanie - 00:49:11:

‍

I think that, historically I have thought of an MSMR degree, really setting someone up to be somebody who's working either on the client side or on the supplier side, but doing executing market research projects or consuming them, and managing them on the client side to make recommendations that are going to have a business impact. But my point is, really in the business of insights, very directly, but I feel like and I think especially because I work at a platform now, and an agile insights platform, that does have an agency within it. But we are a platform, I think for first and foremost, and there are all these other roles that require and really benefit from having somebody as a strong researcher in that role. And it is things like a customer success, you mentioned it, and I just was like, oh yeah. Oh because we love to hire people with the research background, and do a customer success role, and it looks a lot different, you're not always executing, but you are consulting, you are guiding people along a journey of doing that themselves. And I feel like there are adjacent roles in the sales world, also where you know, being a sales consultant, sales engineering, those kinds of things. Do you ever taught like, does that come up in the context of the academic journey, just the variety of jobs that this actually this degree is really well suited for?

‍

Don - 00:50:33:

‍

Absolutely. For me personally, it starts the day that I meet them and talk about my own background. I was somebody who did all these other things and got exposed to research, but you can go the other way. People do go the other way. And I point out grads who were in Insights at Wolverine Worldwide who are now on the brand management team or running in that. I would just talk to a brand manager at Coke who's working on some of the flavored water beverages. The idea of going back to the, can you work with data? Can you understand consumers? Do you know how to summarize, interpret, and talk about what this means for the business? That's still a valuable skill in any of those wolves. Whether you're talking to a client or an internal stakeholder, design if you're at GM, you know, you have to be able to communicate. So this type of degree can set you up for those kind of movements. And we've seen that in our grads and I've seen it in my own experience. Don't think of it as like, oh my gosh, I'm going into research and I have to stay there. Just like I was an industrial engineer who said, you know what? I think I want to pivot. And like nobody came back from U of M and said, give me your degree back.

‍

Matt - 00:51:45:

‍

I think that's a great answer.

‍

Stephanie - 00:51:46:

‍

Don, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been an absolutely illuminating conversation and we appreciate you joining us.

‍

Don - 00:51:54:

‍

Thank you very much for having me. I enjoyed it as well.